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 Feeling Targeted

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Gar Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:41 am

I know that I am new to the Szith, and new to House Dev'Lin, but I do have a question. If you are going to RP Drow, those of a lesser house or lesser station are not quite as worthy as the rest. Therefore, would get less interaction from them, which means less help. If there is no interaction, then how are new players suppose to get accustomed to the rules and RP ways of the Drow society? There is no other way other than to be taken under the wing of a house, which House Dev'Lin was gracious enough to do for me. You talk about proper Drow RP, and House recruitment restrictions until one "proves" him/herself worthy. Without the help and guidance of a House, they will never get where they need to be. Just a thought.
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GeeFresh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:04 am

Sorn Dev'Lin wrote:
Quite frankly this whole thread was started because of the Elitist attitude that I have seen demonstrated over and over again in Szith. And you people wonder why there are so many OOC arguments.

What? 'Elitist attitude'? This is just another phrase that is used occasionally by people trying to point a finger at someone else to deflect an argument away from themselves and is applied in a negative context to make it sound dirty, as is the phrase 'Power Gamer', there is RP and there is Action. This is an RP/Action server and while some lean towards RP and get called names like 'Elitist' as if its supposed to be a negative thing while others just prefer to spend their time making the strongest character they can earning them the title of 'Power Gamer'. I say theres room for both in Szith and a happy medium is what we're aiming for as always, we are two sides of the same coin after all. I have had no roots in DnD before NWN and Consider myself both an "Elitist" and a "Power Gamer" and am proud to admit as much.

Yes good points have been made in this thread about how she'bali are treated and how this effects their want to continue to play drow which is something we can discuss at the council but still the basic problem exists and has just been danced around and avoided a direct answer. As to the argument of "How are we supposed to learn how to play drow if we aren't in a house" this isn't a good one, I personally spent 4 months as she'bali before joining Mori'hyanda and my IC actions as a result are much much better for the experience. Yes its safer for you when you join a house but balance is what is needed and a player given time to make that choice for themselves, taking a new drow player under your wing is going to invariably lead them to want to join your house, period.

If one house takes it upon itself to gather all new drow to it while the other three houses stand by a well constructed application process then that one house that will inevitably take in more new players which in turn will directly prevent the other three houses from developing their player base and will draw towards it hostility.

This is simple human nature and fact, this is why this thread was started to address this issue and this is it explained here in black and white, the fact that you stand resolute and uncompromising in any way with your views towards applicants speaks volumes about how willing you are to work out the problems and feelings of resentment that you currently have.

I don't pull my punches and I don't care whether people like me or not, I don't take things personally and try to act objectively in the best interests of all parties involved. You said you have a problem with feeling targeted? I have given you the solution, whether you choose to do anything about it or not is up to you.


Last edited by GeeFresh on Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mr_Otyugh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:07 am

I for one think that it's good to have different house standards really. Considering that TFR has barely ever been overly heavy on RP (Don't get me wrong, a lot of good RP situations and great players have been and are in TFR), but it has been pretty good melting pot of those whom are new to aspect of RP to learn RP gradually, I for one.. when I started, weren't too good at RP or anything, not saying I'm now either, but I can quite confidently say that I've learned a lot about RPing during stay at TFR.

I believe there's place for Houses with standards and without standards (of course there's always some kind of standards, but anyway). However houses without standard, if wanting to stick and inspire to deeper lore has more 'responsibility' as leader(s) to act as example for the others... show them "This is what drow do", "This is what drow are". And no, it doesn't mean others can't help or show on it as well, but mostly the guild leader is supposed to be more of 'the ideal' target to aim at.

After all, as we all know... at some point everyone are new, at some point everyone needs to get assistance.


Is elitism bad? I don't think it is, it can be great source of fun as well, sometimes it's more enjoyable to get involved in more deep and "correct" RP with those whom know basics as well.


As for mass recruiting... as long as it doesn't become stupid competition who gets most members just for the sake of member numbers... it's alright. Things that can get you more members can be as simple as activity "Ooh hey, that house is active, I want to join them" also standards can be one of the reasons, some likes heavier, some likes lighter RP. I'd mention marketting as well, but I guess that might be leading to the actual mass recruiting process... unless it means marketting all the houses impartially.



Heh heh.
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GeeFresh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:11 am

LOL! Bang on with the Drow Religion thing Mr O Wink
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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:33 am

As I've said numerous times I am not into in just the development of House Dev'Lin but of Szith in general. You can't expect me to apologize for being successful. There are many players on this server that have no interest in participating in the message boards. They shouldn't be expected to in order to join a House.

As for the elitist attitudes... the ones I have seen are demonstrated most notably by Gee and Genocide. Gee seems to believe that because s/he has taken the title of Illharess of Mori that her/his word is law. I'm sorry but that is simply not the case. Genocide believes that he rules of Sorcere with an iron fist and that a simple request to be allowed to stand in the back during a class is grounds for termination from the RPing session and any character goals that someone might desire to accomplish. You want to stop pulling punches there it is. It strikes me funny that Vilm can manage to run the temple... the one place you would think to see the most clashes... without even a hiccup. Its called mutual respect. I have attempted to give everyone the respect I felt that deserved. I've given epic level weapons to members of House Mori... crafting items... and I have never asked for anything in return. Where have I or any of House Dev'Lin been selfish or confrontational?

Until you get over that ego and pride... we won't be able to work together. You've got to make room for others to enjoy their vision of things as well. If not its just going to create more confrontation... if thats what you want then lets get a big pow wow going in the middle of Szith. We'll have a big brawl and those who are left standing can be the dictator. Myself I'd rather try to be reasonable to discuss how we might work together to make this a good community.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:44 am

whoa.

sorn you are completely misunderstanding what happened in class.

Let me be explicit so you are in no doubt:

I completely respect you as a player, as Sorn you were one of the first players i interacted with on the server and as Sol I always show proper respect.

Asking you to sit down was not disrespectful nor somehow demeaning.
I asked everyone else to do the same and as someone attending the class i asked you as well.
It had nothing to do with you not completing the test of m'elzar, it had nothing to do with attempting to demean you.
I was simply asking you to act in the manner that i expected as the class supervisor.
So please stop bringing that up, from my side it was as simple request that was asked in a pleasant manner without any meaness nor lack of respect.
You took it out completely out of context and blew it out of proportion and are continuing to.

PLEASE STOP.

Moving on....

I agree with Pau's very concise statement:

"If one house takes it upon itself to gather all new drow to it while the other three houses stand by a well constructed application process then that one house that will inevitably take in more new players which in turn will directly prevent the other three houses from developing their player base and will draw towards it hostility."

This does not mean that Devlin are bad or underhanded nor somehow attacking the other houses.

Rather it is an observation based upon past experience that both house Morcane and house Mori have come to understand.

I believe careful and considerate House recruiting is a key element in establishing long-lasting szithian drow RP.

It took me months before I was accepted into house morcane and i was better for it.
It should be hard to get into a house, not "hi, welcome to szith, here's a key, come on in".
There are plenty of ways to help newb shebali drow understand drow lore and get involved without being a member of a house.
It helps greatly to understand drow lore from both the position of shebali and noble and a few months as a shebali with proper rp support from the community (both noble and shebali) will help this.
Inducting people quickly into a house only leads to detrimental effects on the medium to long-term.

Please refrain from getting upset and raising your blood pressure.

No one is saying house devlin is doing anything malicious nor that they are somehow bad for szith on purpose.

Both Pau and I are trying to be constructive, please take it as that.

No attacks here.
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GenocideMode

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:47 am

lol Mr O I think you finaly got it right! cheers
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GeeFresh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:00 am

*Facepalms*

I have no ego or pride otherwise I would be respond to personal character attacks by making ones of my own which I will not do. If you want to check my posts on the old and new TFR forums to show that I have always been as I am now regardless of my status in Szith now then feel free to. The reason why people like Vilm and Mr O are liked by everyone is because they give constructive advice as to how to resolve issues but don't openly point out problems that can lead to things like this and are reactive as opposed to proactive (at least in the sense of policy). People like myself and GenocideMode are open about our personal opinions which leads to people taking offense and in turn taking things personally that should otherwise be taken objectively.

The essence of community when it comes to issues of policy is compromise and I am more than willing to do just that as I'm sure many others are. I am willing to compromise the issue of how she'bali are treated in Szith if you are willing to compromise your applicant policy. There are quite a few people who feel the same way as I do about this but won't post so as to leave themselves open to attack so I'll take it on the chin for them and fight in their corner but I can't speak for them all directly.

Just so as we are clear, no one is talking about open confrontation in Szith. It has happened before and is always bad for everyone involved, winner or looser.

PS. Sorry for missing your tells in game as i was on this forum responding at the time Wink
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Mr_Otyugh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:07 am

Lets avoid getting personal or I might have to learn how to lock threads in this forum. <,<


And how the hell is asking to sit down an ego trip!? >,< It's a school (technically), you don't really stand in a school either I hope if teacher tells you to sit down? Is the teacher any higher valued than you in that case? No way the teacher ain't... just simply the guy/gall that tells you new stuff and normally you'll show respect to the teacher by sitting down, if you fail to show this respect it usually ends up to you being told to leave... representing the point that if you do not show them respect, you receive not the respect of teacher to share their information with you.

Isn't it standard that usually you are 'supposed' to sit down during classes? Unless special occasions naturally. I find it very valid to make "condition" that if one doesn't sit down, then they don't want to play along and can as well pike off... crudely said, I know.

Sitting down during classes isn't form of submission, it is form of showing proper respect. You aren't asked to lay down your defenses and tell your secrets, you aren't questioned, you lose nothing, you are merely asked to.. sit down.

I could go on, but I guess that'll mostly make up the point.. if not, I'm happy to argue the meanings/representations/hints/messages of the actions based on "Asking to sit down during necromantic knowledge class" in PMs. I got a thing on arguments Razz
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Vilmiathien
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:32 pm

Well it seems we have plenty to talk about at our meeting. Razz

I plan on tackling house ranking right away both IC and OOC, the solution is actually quite simple when you think about in the right context. I will save it for the meeting though.

I would like to point out (Now I am not totally sure of this, but I have seen plenty of evidence) that Dev'lin has not been walking upto every player they see and goin -

"hmm, two pairs black pants, two pairs black boots, burial money and balck skin...ok you in!!"

Just because they do not have a running app process on there board does not mean there new members are not screened in someway. Having played with many of the new members of Dev'lin, I can attest that these are at least players who are not total newbies. Many of which I beleive are players that other Dev'lin members have played with as alts on the surface. So most in the very least have some TFR experience if not drow experience (not to say none have this either).

One of the reasons I give classes for the Yath is to help people learn a little lore (in many ways its why I took the Ulathtallar mantle, to teach those who do not know, and to build on knowledge that people already know (and maybe learn something myself in the process)
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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:01 pm

I asked politely to be allowed to stand... more than once.... I had a few other things going on and didn't want to be distrated with scrolling over the other members of the class and things that were going on with it but still wanted to be able to respond in character. I informed Cel'ith of it in both a tell and an ooc message. What exactly is the big deal about that? I never interrupted the class... I'm simply working on alot of things at once. Why does there continue to be a problem with that? Because I wouldn't "sit" in a chair that is broken anyway? I'll let it go... but I in no way believe myself to be in error in my actions.

Thank you Vilm for the vote of confidence in regards to the type of player that I have been recruiting and who have come to me with interest in playing a drow character. Perhaps its the arduous application process that is turning other players off from your Houses and directing them to Dev'Lin? Just an idea. I know if I wasn't running Dev'Lin I wouldn't post a single message on these boards. But... I am not here to tell you how to run your House... and I will appreciate the same in return. I look forward to seeing how things go at this meeting and I hope that everyone comes with a level head rather than a chip on their shoulder.
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:16 pm

I did say in one of the earlier messages that I don't see big deal with it either way, but it seems to come back up and pointed as "ego trip" and I simply cannot understand how it is ego trip... if you can explain it to me, fire away. As I stated earlier, it's pretty standard thing in classes.. in which you were.

He refused to sit, took and left... seems to me like it has been handeled IC and I fail to see how it was ego trip, merely roleplaying, which you both did from both sides. You roleplayed refusing to sit and the otherside roleplayed by telling the character to leave. -> Job well done... THERE IS NOTHING OUT OF CHARACTER in either side about that from what I can tell... except mayhaps accusations of "Ego trip".

This thread was made by you and you did ask to point out problems, there's problem I'd like to point... you're accusing others wrongly of roleplaying their characters correctly. Things don't always go your characters ways... *shrugs* is that bad thing? That's roleplaying in multiplayer.

As usually, I tend to believe in "Cause and effect"

Cause:
-> Refusal to sit down when asked to.

Effect:
-> Told to leave.

... anyone else thinks everything went alright (exception of this stupid OOC fuzz of people roleplaying their characters)?... or is it just me?
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GeeFresh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:33 pm

Sounds to me like everything went correctly IC wise thoug I wasn't there so couldn't really comment. Sounds like another missunderstanding or misscommunication that has escalated needlessly.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:43 pm

MOVING ON....
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GenocideMode

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:49 pm

Sorn

Quote :
Genocide believes that he rules of Sorcere with an iron fist and that a simple request to be allowed to stand in the back during a class is grounds for termination from the RPing session and any character goals that someone might desire to accomplish.

I never said anything about termination, I said "Celith was placed in charge of the class and had the right to ask for punishment for disruption his class" that day the class was in his controll he held the rains and called the shots. and heaven forbit dont let me stand inway of your character goals, odd I dont remember doing this.

Iv always been opened minded when set the classes and doing the labs, even let the students creat there own ROD with the spels they wanted to see in game (hope Hari will add soon) As I said befor and ill say again, the rules I set is just a guideline and is still in beta, if anyone can point out a better way in handling them just send me a post, I take any and all suggestions.
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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:32 pm

"This thread was made by you and you did ask to point out problems, there's problem I'd like to point... you're accusing others wrongly of roleplaying their characters correctly. Things don't always go your characters ways... *shrugs* is that bad thing? That's roleplaying in multiplayer."

I think its a bad thing when someone is excluded for something as simple as not wishing to take a seat and politely requesting such. The ego trip in this situation is being unable to understand and allow such a simple request. I could agree with the results had I been any sort of interruption or distraction... but I never once said anything and could easily have been ignored and allowed to participate. Moving on...

Genocide's response... perhaps something other than attending classes can be used to determine someones worthiness of attaining a Masters rank. Some of us don't have the time or the desire to sit in a class room and watch others explain aspects of the game that are already understood. While I am encouraging members of House Dev'Lin to participate in order to expand their involvement in the servers storyline, I am sure that we can devise other ways to accommodate these players. With that said thank you for not responding in an aggressive tone, my comments could have easily been taken that way and I appreciate the conversation remaining civil.

I welcome any criticism and thank you for joining me in discussing this. I hope we can continue to be as open and understanding in our future discussions as this has gone so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:43 pm

Quote :
Perhaps its the arduous application process that is turning other players off from your Houses and directing them to Dev'Lin?

I grudgingly agree with this, though I do feel an app process is necassary. I have voiced similiar concern in the Mori boards. Since taking over Gee has cut down the Mori app quite abit. I personally feel that all the house recruiting processes should be altered slightly, to fit those players who don't do boards. I suggest this...

No apps required to join a house, you simply need to put in some play time with the houses members, so they can evaluate you properly. Upon being accepted into the house you must fill out the house app if you want your char to climb up in ranks past foot soldier (probationary members). In otherwards anyone interested can join a house with out going to the boards and filling out a leangthy app, but to achieve rank in the house above house Shebali you must fill out the app.

The only truly important thing with the APP process is the potential members char build and there future plans. IE, are you planning on playing a paladin of Tyr? Well then you won't fit in most houses....or are you planning on joining the surface drow in the future? Do you secretly worship Vhaerun, etc...

All of these questions can be answered in game, with out an app.

Here is something else, when I played COPAP NWN1, you needed permission fromt the DM team to make a drow. So many people were using the race to make cheese builds they locked it and made it so you could not make one with out the teams blessing. Playing the only drow priestess there and with a bunch of other players, like blade playing my family members, we soon became the major player baddies on the server set, our name whispered even on COPAP servers we did not play on. Being the highest lvl, the HP, and most active drow on the server, I worked closely with the DMs. There were many instances where people would do an app, send it to the team and then play something totally different then what they told the team in there app. This often resulted on the Team sending there dogs of Lolth (me lvl37...very scary) out to do bad things Razz. Punishmets were severe, but that is another thread.

The point is an app is not fool proof. Who is to say someone is going to fill out the app and bull*?%#* there way through it just to get that Mori armour or Kor'ali shield? Keep in mind my situation I give in NWN1 involved a locked server, where people had to join copap, just to get the passwords to play, RP was paramount, and drow apps were submited to a strict DM team. If these things happend there, whats to say it can't happen in a almost purely player driven system on an open server where RP is encouraged but not paramount?
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:23 pm

I agree that application process is not perfect.. it can be alright, and give better view of others characters/intentions et cetera things. Nothing really wrong about such process by any means, just that it's pretty well known that not all players check forums or want to check forums.. they did come to play the game and all.

During handling Militia I tried to avoid having the players need to visit in forums (and yes, I realise it was surface guild and this is underdark guild.. but players have somewhat same mentalities regardless of place), I did point out that there was more information about Militia that they could find. But basically every rules of joining was done in game, by checking the characters, questioning them. Telling what Militia does, what would be their basic responsibilities and other things... while tried myself in forums to provide any necessary details about Militia, tell the story of Militia etc...

Basically mainly handle things in game, since that's what most want. I didn't even want own forums for Militia or website because I rather kept things simple.. if Militia things, could use public forums or handle things in game. Although I'll admit that Militia had advantage on side of equipment gain only by 2 different persons having access to store (or provide access to others), so basically all shopping was monitored.

Best way is to make some standards that all possible members need to fullfill (in that kind of system)... maybe tell the needed information about the house and their possible responsibilities etc. In game, face to face and IC.



Don't get me wrong, I don't find anything wrong in applications by any means. And I have to respect to House Mori'hyanda for being able to keep up with their standards rather well through the times. Just that with application process it'll be harder to recruit in general... to some players there might come more of feeling "Meh, I don't feel like filling something like this just to play"

BUT.. every house doesn't need to be same by any means.



Back to the sitting incidence, I guess we can all admit that what was done, was done... in future they might be handeled differently. Neither side meant any harm, just share different opinnions from what I can tell. Neither entirily wrong, neither entirily right I suppose... *shrugs* minor issue in the end.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:34 pm

regarding the way sorciere is run i am very happy with rizzen's efforts to date.

far superior than the empty shell sorciere was under the previous administration.

now things happen in sorciere and there is rp built around it that adds to the game (in fact as an epic it's pretty much all there is..rp i mean).

i fully support having to attend classes, perform tests and generally ENGAGE IN RP RELATED TO THE ACADEMY to rise in rank in the academy.

If you don't want to, don't have enough time, don't care etc. that's fine there's plenty of other opportunities for RP elsewhere in TFR.

In fact being THE HEAD OF YOUR HOUSE i would suspect demands most of your attention. I am not head of a house and so i can spend my time in sorciere developing rp for it and enriching the world for others.

I think the problem here (and i may be wrong) is that sorn you're expecting to be master of everything, fingers-in-every-pie without the effort.

I only play one character, cel'ith, who has dedicated the time and effort to rise in the ranks of sorciere.
Other players are free to do likewise and their ranking within sorciere will reflect that.

Somehow you took offense at my polite request, which is completely routine for any class anyone attends.

You thought it was an ego driven request because you were somehow "less" than my character.

This is completely fallacious as I would have asked anyone attending, regardless of rank (excepting the archmage himself) to "please take a seat".

Come on.
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Vilmiathien
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:01 pm

Lol, all this bickering over taking a seat in a class room, lol.


Can we just drop that part of the issue, it has become quite old and is it really that big of a deal? Jeesh! lol

Sorn, you could have sat (nothing more than an emote) apart from the class to supervise...like in the front by where Celith was lectureing or whatever

Celith, dont push so hard, remember comprimse you could have suggested this right away. Simply stating Please allow me the floor brother or something or other and if he just stepped back and didn't sit, whatever so long as he is out of the way of what you have planned is it really that big of a deal?

"What we have hear is failure to comunicate..."

As the old quote goes. Comprimse, enough bickering over what happend and lets just see that next time a better compirmise is found.
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:05 pm

*removed by myself*


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Gar Dev'Lin



Posts : 3
Join date : 2008-10-13
Location : Quad Cities, Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:22 am

My two cents, I am going to have to agree with Vilmiathien here. If we can't move past this one incident, then it is going to be very difficult to establish a relationship to resolve other issues that are more pressing. JUst my two cents. Smile
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adzling



Posts : 23
Join date : 2008-08-26

PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:54 am

every time i attempt to move on someone chimes in on the topic again forcing me to respond.

bladechill, you're a fine player and im going to take your last rant as simply an abberration.

moving on...
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Raye'Kan Dev'Lin

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Posts : 95
Join date : 2008-07-07
Age : 48

PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:53 pm

adzling wrote:
regarding the way sorciere is run i am very happy with rizzen's efforts to date..

2 cp here as well, I agree that Rizz has done a great job, and is helping to build cross house RP that is positive, fun and healthy for Szith.
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Sorn Dev'Lin



Posts : 40
Join date : 2008-07-01

PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:02 pm

We can certainly move on from the class issue... I never meant to bring it up and create such a sore point. Next time I will try not to be so immature and huffy. I will admit that I very much got the impression that you were attempting to talk down to me... especially after I requested to be allowed to stand in a tell to keep it from boiling over and ruining the class. I think we can both agree to take Vilm's advice in this instance as in many and find a more reasonable compromise the next time we come across something of that nature.
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