A proposition to resolve differences between standard drow lore and TFR szithian drow lore..

i would like to propose some changes to drow lore & mythology to reflect the realities of playing on TFR.

as vilm notes above many of the higher ups in the acadaemies and the houses themselves (ilharess anyone?) would almost never leave their houses/academies and almost never ever leave szith.

given the realities of playing on TFR and the much smaller size of szith compared to a traditional drow city (it's more like a large outpost) i think it would be beneficial to post some explicit changes to the way drow society works in regards to szith.

my first suggestion is:

1). given the small size of szith academy heads and the heads of houses often venture out of their respective intstitutions to effect the world around them.

here's another more controversial one:

2). given the small size of szith an outright house war would be devastating as there is not a large stable of lower houses to take the place of an upper one that falls/ is defeated. In szith house war is VERY rare and hasn't happened in recent memory.
Most challenges to ranking/ positioning is settled through political or otherworldly means (direct petition to a representation of lolth).

3). Becoming a "noble" in szith.
In normal drow houses you are either born into the nobility, a shebali retainer or a houseless shebali.
In Szith, due to the very small number of houses, the status of a shebali retainer is much more influential and holds a much higher status than it would in a standard drow city.
In effect you become a "noble" although the direct descendants of the matron are still above you.

4). Nobility from other cities.
Szith is far from other parts of the underdark and has little trade or contact with them. Drow do not come to szith on their way anywhere. It is in effect a backwater that attracts those who are running away from something. As a new arrival do not expect any pre-existing "noble" status you may have had in another city due to your "backstory" to be respected in Szith. (any old noob can declare themselves an "ilharess" from a some long lost house, just don't expect the nobility of szith to give a flying fark).

and here are couple of clarifications/ rules I would like to see implemented:

5). House recruiting.
I would like to see all houses agree to not recruit any shebali below level 5.
This would help avoid many of the problems with players who are just passing through quickly joining a house and then just as quickly leaving.

6). Guild shopping. Once inducted into the nobility you are a noble for life.
If you leave the house without prior consent by the ilharess (almost never given) you will be hunted to death.


anyhoo what do people think of continuing this thread regarding differences between szith drow and the drow cities we are all used to reading about?
Could help resolve some of these inconsistencies we come across all the time.

I would like to chime in, saying that I think Adzling has many good ideas here, that if adopted would not cause "catastrophic" or negative changes to the Szith community or the TRF community as a whole. in fact, i think they would help the TRF community.

adzling wrote:

1). given the small size of szith academy heads and the heads of houses often venture out of their respective intstitutions to effect the world around them.

I totally agree. I feel that the size of Szith, and it's 'backwater' remote connection/status in comparison the Realms Underdark works very very well.

adzling wrote:

here's another more controversial one:

2). given the small size of szith an outright house war would be devastating as there is not a large stable of lower houses to take the place of an upper one that falls/ is defeated. In szith house war is VERY rare and hasn't happened in recent memory.
Most challenges to ranking/ positioning is settled through political or otherworldly means (direct petition to a representation of lolth).

Yup, this one is a hard one to agree on. I feel that the 'threat' of a 'house war' is a wonder source of exciting role play, and can lead to a some equally exciting pvp BUT (and let's really stress 'but' here) the reality is, that the players at the key boards (myself very much included) do not like to have their characters humiliated by pvp defeats in addition to taking such wars/conflicts as personal affronts/insults. We are human, and of many different backgrounds, and ages; and though each of us as individuals want to 'rise above' a petty response, everyone (even us over 40 crowd of players) falls short from time to time.

So, I'd like to suggest a modification of #2

Just as a DM is required to be present and 'run' any attack on any city in TFR, Let's require that a DM be present for and 'run' any 'House War" in Szith. Let all the potential of 'threats' continue as supported by role play, but when it comes down to a full on house vs. house fight, make it an Event. Schedule a time for the two (or more) houses to attend, and under Lolth's eyes (not litterly, spawning a god seems to have been a bad idea) have them fight it out. Last house standing wins. If a house can't field the characters needed to win such a battle, then so be it. The losing house is 'demoted' in status (not destroyed), and the winning house moves up or maintains their standing. After the event all sides are forbidden from retaliation for a period of time (say one month?).

adzling wrote:

3). Becoming a "noble" in szith.
In normal drow houses you are either born into the nobility, a shebali retainer or a houseless shebali.
In Szith, due to the very small number of houses, the status of a shebali retainer is much more influential and holds a much higher status than it would in a standard drow city.
In effect you become a "noble" although the direct descendants of the matron are still above you.

I disagree with point #3. I understand what adzling is saying here, I just don't think it will attract new players characters to Szith. Very few folks want to play drow of non-noble status due to the almost continuous disrespect if not out right abuse that will be role played towards their characters by those who are members of a noble status.

I suggest we 'use' the small size and remote 'backwater' status of Szith to our advantage again. Lets have the "Yath" say that due to Lolth's will (or entertainment) she has given the noble houses of Szith a blood ritual to make a 'shebali' into noble blood. Now adzling's point about a 'born' noble being of hirer status than a 'made' noble would still stand, but such political conflicts would be limited to within each specific guild, and not an external issue used to make house vs house politics even more difficult.

adzling wrote:

4). Nobility from other cities.
Szith is far from other parts of the underdark and has little trade or contact with them. Drow do not come to szith on their way anywhere. It is in effect a backwater that attracts those who are running away from something. As a new arrival do not expect any pre-existing "noble" status you may have had in another city due to your "backstory" to be respected in Szith. (any old noob can declare themselves an "ilharess" from a some long lost house, just don't expect the nobility of szith to give a flying fark).

I totally agree. To walk into a new server with a new character and a new noble house without considering the older houses or server history will only lead to 00C conflicts. It's no different than making a new character and claiming him to be the Prince of Fey Saile's long lost son and claiming instant kinghthood and noble status. It's not allowed on the surface, and should not be allowed in the underdark. Join the server, get to know the politics of Szith, and then work in 00C with the presently nobility (all of them) to create a new noble house without all of the unneeded 00C stress. Then expect, flat out, to be and remain the bottom of the ladder until wining such an event as I have suggested above.

adzling wrote:

5). House recruiting.
I would like to see all houses agree to not recruit any shebali below level 5.
This would help avoid many of the problems with players who are just passing through quickly joining a house and then just as quickly leaving.

Agreed, with the exception of new characters created by players who already have characters within a specific noble house. I think it's reasonable fora Mori member to create a new toon that was 'born' noble in that house.

adzling wrote:

6). Guild shopping. Once inducted into the nobility you are a noble for life.
If you leave the house without prior consent by the ilharess (almost never given) you will be hunted to death.

Agreed, though would like to add '... you will be hunted to death by all of the noble houses."

I am total agreement on point 1.

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2). given the small size of szith an outright house war would be devastating as there is not a large stable of lower houses to take the place of an upper one that falls/ is defeated. In szith house war is VERY rare and hasn't happened in recent memory.
Most challenges to ranking/ positioning is settled through political or otherworldly means (direct petition to a representation of lolth).

I think in a city the size of Szith, house war is just something that should not be. The loss of one house is a loss of a quarter of Szith's power, not something anybody would want OOC or IC. I think in a city the size of ours, house ranking would not have as much bearing (example: being #1 out of 100 is good, being #1 out of four does not seem that big of deal) especially since we do have a Valsharess who in the typical house ranking system would not exist, instead her duties would be performed by the Matron of the first house.

House conflicts should be there all the time, but not open war, for one thing do to time zones and such, the concept of drow house war (A swift attack elliminating all house nobles, with no witnesses) is not possible in Szith. I think our best bet for this would be to stick to small skirmishes and blood fueds, often discussed and settled by the Valsharess (her primary purpose to keep the city from destroying itself) and Il'haressen (not to say we wont make the caves a little bloody before hand, but actual house war should be a no no.

On a side not on house war...yes a Dm would be needed, this obvious.

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3). Becoming a "noble" in szith.
In normal drow houses you are either born into the nobility, a shebali retainer or a houseless shebali.
In Szith, due to the very small number of houses, the status of a shebali retainer is much more influential and holds a much higher status than it would in a standard drow city.
In effect you become a "noble" although the direct descendants of the matron are still above you.

I think in our city the idea of Noble families and there retainers is moot. I think we are safe with the way things are now. Any person playing a Shebali is free to join a house of there choosing, if they choose to grind to lvl 25 and not join one then complain about not getting respected...oh well. They can join a house, or attempt to have the Valsharess name there family as noble (probably not going to happen)

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4). Nobility from other cities.
Szith is far from other parts of the underdark and has little trade or contact with them. Drow do not come to szith on their way anywhere. It is in effect a backwater that attracts those who are running away from something. As a new arrival do not expect any pre-existing "noble" status you may have had in another city due to your "backstory" to be respected in Szith. (any old noob can declare themselves an "ilharess" from a some long lost house, just don't expect the nobility of szith to give a flying fark).

I am 50/50 with this one. I think of the second book in War of the Spider Queen. The Menzo drow, upon arriving in Ched Nesed are not considered shebali, they deffinately are not given the status they get in Menzo, but they are not treated as shebali.

However, For our city though, backstories should not effect status in Szith, simply do to the fact that everyone would say they were nobles from another city and cheeze it. Vilm came from Ched Nesed, when she arrived she had no status, rp should dictate status, not background, background is to fill out your character.

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5). House recruiting.
I would like to see all houses agree to not recruit any shebali below level 5.
This would help avoid many of the problems with players who are just passing through quickly joining a house and then just as quickly leaving.

Yeah, and I would like to see Lolth clerics that only pick Lolth domains

Seriously though, this idea has a good point but is kind of a waste of time, I can get a char to lvl 5 in one day, given the right group to travel with.

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6). Guild shopping. Once inducted into the nobility you are a noble for life.
If you leave the house without prior consent by the ilharess (almost never given) you will be hunted to death.

Not to sure about this, here are some reasons:

1. Everybody has the right to choose wich guild they wish to be in, if they change there minds they should have this right ooc.

2. There are circumstances with this one, for example, if said char is brought in to another noble house. Yes they would be hunted down by there original house, however being in a new house they are still considered in the new house, there fore hunting should be done outside the city away from prying eyes. Like any other assassination.

As far as being hunted by all houses goes, I totally disagree, what do the other houses care if there competition looks bad? They would not, in fact they would welcome it. So I dont think the house switcher will be hunted down by all houses, just there original house.

A great topic, though I do not think we necassarily need a bunch of new rules, we just need to keep these things in mind, as they do come up often.

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work in 00C with the presently nobility (all of them) to create a new noble house without all of the unneeded 00C stress. Then expect, flat out, to be and remain the bottom of the ladder until wining such an event as I have suggested above.

This is what I am begining to work for with the Del'kor family

thanks for the replies would like to see more discussion on this topic.

regarding a noble being "poached" by another house i think we should all agree to the following position:

You cannot join another house until you have negotiated the leaving of your current house (which most likely means getting killed and sac'd).
I.E. you cannot just one day up and say "i am no longer a member of house x but instead a member of house y".
first you need to resolve you situation with house x.

No drow can be a member of two houses at once and only the ilharess of your current house can release you from service.
There is no way around this, drow lore is very clear..a noble is the property of their ilharess no if's ands or buts.

The only exception to this is if you turn heretic and go join the rahns.

No ilharess in szith would risk a house war by openly poaching a member of another house....

Sounds right to me, also should a need to guild hop ever arise for someone, there should be ooc deliberation on the subject so a proper avenue of rp can be build around it.

Example: Isandra's player should have voiced there concerns about leaving Morcane OOC so the proper course could have been discussed amonst Morcane OOC before hand.

So I say from now on these things should be discussed first on house threads

I would like to add my two cents in the case of House jumping, that any Drow who moves from one house to another takes no IC knowledge of said house with them in effect an Illithid is brought in to wipe all house knowledge from them,This would be the only way to change Houses as no Matron would give permision to swap without this happening.

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Example: Isandra's player should have voiced there concerns about leaving Morcane OOC so the proper course could have been discussed amonst Morcane OOC before hand.

It would have helped if Isandra would have even posted on the Morcane forum or made IC contact with any Morcane...

Once you get in full agreement, you can post it to TFR forums also and I'll or some other DM makes it sticky for you.