A Big Change

OK, before I get to the meat of this post I’d just like to say that this idea comes from Z’ress and not me. I’m sure others before have considered it also but now that my muse has spoken I’m taking the initiative and putting it out in the open for everyone to decide upon, also because I think that the catalyst for this concept should be players and not DM’s for several reasons best kept quiet for another occasion.

The two houses of Mori’hyanda and Morcane should become one.

First of all I’ll put down the reasons why this should happen but I’d like to ask those who are already screaming ‘no way’ at the screen to think about what this means for Szith, putting personal opinions with regard to particular players or house ethics to one side. We need to all face facts; Szith has become stagnant over the last few months. Most of the members of these two houses have been around a while, some since beta days and we know of the differences and sometimes grudges our two houses hold for each other and we are all aware of the travesties that were ‘the reckoning’ events which tore Szith apart, rather than sort things out then when we could of people were too distracted by their own dealings with the repercussions, myself included which in turn has lead to the next problem with the creation of two more qu’ellaren for Kor’ali and Dev’lin. The fact of this matter is that we do not have enough of a drow player base to support four houses and not enough yath in each alone to run that house well, the result of their creation was that instead of two houses being suspicious of one and other there were now four houses acting on their own interests and each seeking to step over the other to the top spot of ‘the first house of Szith’ and where did it get us? Absolutely no where.

After some delay in implementation the council of Szith has been formed which is a step in the right direction and the cure of many arguments but it doesn’t address the inherent problem of Szith, now I’m not saying the two houses joining will cure this problem either but it is another step in the right direction I personally believe. RP of our race necessitates that we are distrustful and suspicious of one another but it came to the point that we were so involved in the RP that we stopped talking to each other as players and this is bad. It’s been too long since Szith moved as a unified force in any direction other than inwardly and I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m tired with empty streets and fending off surfacers who come to mine by myself or with maybe one or two other people in party with the combination of effort between the two houses we would be unstoppable, literally.

What I suggest is this; not a hostile takeover or one house being absorbed into the other but the creation of a new name that we all choose between us as players and then the gradual integration of everyone from the two houses into the one new house. Yes it won’t be easy and there will need to be more discussion about who holds rank over who if two of the same title exist in both houses but personally I am willing to give up my position as Illharess if it means that this endeavour would be successful, right now Szith needs direction and purpose and while we bicker amongst ourselves and argue over anything that may see the other house gaining more favour or being more successful we cannot achieve that ever.

This isn’t the first time this has been thought of, certain members from each faction have made alternates and formed a new house Del’kor (if I remember right :O) but because Morcane and Mori’hyanda remained apart and people from each side couldn’t trust one another that new idea of Del’kor failed and they were absorbed back into their respective houses. The point is that people from both houses were willing to try and sort things out, even if eventually it would have lead to a fifth house and even more heads to bang together We need change, we need new energy and with the impending implementation of SoZ and the new races it will introduce the player base that currently exists will diminish even further, we have heretic she’bali wondering our streets, we have trespassers who regularly walk our lands and keep coming back when unchallenged, we have people leaving the UD altogether and laughing at us while they dance in the moonlight which we haven’t once led a full out attack against. This needs to stop now.

Rant over with I will initially post this on the Szith forums and on TFR when it comes back up, if initial reception is good then the thread can be copied and posted on the two house forums with a vote counter so that everyone has a say. If it amounts to nothing then so be it, in the event of a yes/no result where one house disagrees then I suggest a counting of the total votes and if the ayes out way the nays then the move should go ahead and those dissatisfied should find a place within the two other qu’ellaren that remain. I’m ready to get things moving again and I hope you guys are too

Even though i'm not in one of the four houses, nor a long time player.

i think it'd be a great idea.


I'd rather be in a big house, with lots of players.

Than a small house, with only a few ever online.

More players together = more RP for everyone.
Also, when everyone is in the same house, the ranks wil become more important i think.
So we'd have more of that lovely drow RP too.

Plus with such a big group, you could very easily host your own events.

I have long endorsed this idea. Personally, I believe the only way for Szith to work properly (or close as possible to it) would be to make one house and all other houses would be DM controlled. To do this of course we would need some people to become drow DM's, from our own ranks or from the already small team ranks. I am for it, and would ask even the other two come and make one large house.

The house should probably keep the Morcane name, per Lore, Szith Morcane was a drow outpost on the mainland (long ago). So it would make sense that the outpost of Szith would be the home of House Morcane. I am for the idea, it would solve a lot of problems for everyone. There is a problem though, the opposing houses (though the root of most of our evils) keep us occupied with intrigue and backstabbing rp (or at least they are supposed to) while the DM team runs surface plots. (with a few exceptions like Z'ress and Blight) No house competition means nothing to do but grind, unless we get Hari to approve a few new DM's for Szith in particular.

DM presence is our problem, A drow city Requires it, from my experience. Weather there is one house or ten, with out DM's we are left to cheese, plane and simple and I have run as many player driven plots as the next guy, maybe more.

This suggestion is worthed to be discussed!

I am not against Quellar unification, and the keeping of Morcane as the PC Noble house (Hey no favoritism from my part here ). This would simplify a lot of thing, and set up stage for others.

I dont think one single house will change much the amount of grinding occuring in UD. We have to face it. ECL 2 make it harder for us drow to level, hence we need to keep ahead of things just for PvP against surfacer sake! But this brings a larger pool for us to team against the enemy!

Maybe my wish will be realized, for I have been dreaming of driven event to set/establish ranks in quellar. Since each house have few player base, pooling them would provide for that to happen.

What about an Arena fight to set the House Weapon Master. Who would remain there until challenged and defeated.

Our Sorciere fearn are still active with their mastering the weave, and provide for rising fearn good challenge for them to complete in order to progress in rank. This, btw, I welcome very much.

Yathrin have their ceremonies. We could make extension for other House classes.

We could have One unified integration event to test new player pledging to join the noble house. Passing it grants them to the House, starting at the lower rank.

One single house does not prevent Coup d'état, as it should happen in a real drow society. People gaining power by deception and cunning.


So bottom line, I would be for it!

Vilmiathien wrote:

The house should probably keep the Morcane name, per Lore, Szith Morcane was a drow outpost on the mainland (long ago). So it would make sense that the outpost of Szith would be the home of House Morcane.

But while Szith Morcane was a drow outpost on the mainland, Mori'hyanda were the first here and according to Szith lore the creators of our current city.

Regardsless of lore, I very much doubt one house will take the name of the other which is why it is time to think outside the box and create a new name and a new start for all of us with our existing players, the problem before was one house will not accept being integrated into another and I don't think that has changed so a new start is needed. I think the rejuvination will see much more RP between stronger houses as a result and more people to act out the RP as well.

The name is really irrelevant to me, I suggested it more based on actual FR lore. A change of this magnitude, would probably best be just done, Szith's history would just have to change, I don't really see anyway to do it with out that. I don't think any house would find many IC reasons to do this, due to history and just the races nature.

Still support the idea, I just feel if we are going to change Szith's layout and structure that much, the cities past rp'd history will have to be altered as well. Honestly, if we are going to restructure in this way, we should go all out.

Celith (ADZ) suggested similiar to this as far as Szith not being a city of noble house but an outpost. This would fit our bill pretty well, especaily with 1 or at least fewer houses.

We could rp that the combining of Qu'ellaren could be Lolth's decree. That could get messy though...

I would like to say this sound way to carebear for me or any of the Drow that started Kor'ali on this server one house is against the concept of a lolthian city it would all be cheese, And I do speak for Hades here Death Shard can speak well enough and I really dont see a problem with how things are we have 2 returniing Kor'ali and a new one coming from else where we have 6 players on almost every day I am on every day and help out new players, I see 6 devlin player and 6 morcanes most days and there are mayebe '15 mori's Diff times all week you put us all in one house and the only Focus we will have is the Surface and TFR has a policy that restricts us to the UD when it comes to PVP we have no rights up there so we can go up there "Can wee pvp you we are bored with the fact we all one big happy family now " and get a constant NO as an answer or we can patrol the underdark as we do now and KOS any surfacers wow that sounds more like what we do now except none of the Drow flavour of house Rivalries spying and assasination attempts , within one House this would will tear the Drow appartt anyway this is really a mute point as I know that I for one would not be willing to change my RP for anyone else I came to this server to keep Vin'del Kor'ali alive and kicking and I would rather go back to POTM and play him there all by himself than be forced to change his RP one little bit, for those who have havent heard a Dm on Amia screwed with kor'ali RP and we all left the server as a group Drow RP died fairly badly there after we were gone. personally I think the 4 existing Houses are doing Just fine i see great RP from the Older House players (ones been doing it long time age is not age of the player as in how long yiou have RP Drow so the ones from NWN1 have more experience the newer players ethier learn to rp drow or go back to being a surfacer) I for one have Barely started Vin'del kor'ali's RP here as the House needed a Master mage and Crafter asap so i had to grind him till my mouse hand blead I may not be making much sense to you lot as Its 456 am as I type this and I have so many things going through my head as why this is the worst possible Idea for Drow RP I could think of and also the worst idea for getting new Drow players active cause One Big house sounds Kind of Hard to get one of the Top ranks in and dont tell me that Drow Rpers want to all be lowley kicked about males cause what you sugest leaves 1 Matron 1 House mage 1 High Priestess IF its not the Matron 1 Weapons master ect ect ect where we now have 4 of these positions, I really have too many objections to think off them all now but I can tell you I would continue To Play Vin'del Kor'ali no matter everyone In my house decided to Join One House.

What I think is needed on the server is not one house its a new rule that Drow dont need permission to be Drow so you want to go surface or upper UD (subteraiin tunnels Qos ect )to kill surfacers No Permission required and vice versu the rule should be If the opponent is less than challenging then permission should be asked and any drow who dies on surface stays away for 2 real time days and again vice versu and in the subterain we call it No mans /drows land and if you die there no going back for like say 12 hours real Time and if this was implemented we would see much more interesting rp develop from the pvp interaction and more IC plots between houses to see how many more surfacers could be sacrificed to gain lolths favour than any other house.

Sorry but one House sounds like a degradation of Drow RP to me not something that should or would ever work in Drow rp.
lolth herself set up the Drow caste Noble system to make the drow fight among themselves and keep them the strongest of the Elven races through survival of the fitest She would come down and split One House in to 8 if it ever happened maybe we need 4 new houses to rise from the shebali to help un stagnate the drow RP and we all know why there should be 8 Houses on the ruling Council dont we

Well I just wanted to see reaction to the thought initially and I knew there would be complications, I doubt that they would be anything that we can't get out imaginations round though

The change in name altough making the process more difficult in the long run RP wise is I think essential here though as it is a symbol of each houses willingness to join and start over a new. If one kept the name and the other was intigrated no matter what is said there would still be hostility possiblity for later complications.

Vilm, you've always been the loremaster of drow in my opnion but just because something has never happened in drow history doesn't mean it can't happen. Everything has a first time and this would supply RP in a big way

Reaper and Vilm, in response to the one house thing lets just take this one step at a time and deal with this topic before we move on please

I thought I was dealing with the one house thing as hades administrator and an Elder Kor'ali all the way back to Amia I said NO to the one house thing you may have Two houses if the other three merge in Szith or three if dev'lin dont want to but Kor'ali will remain unless Hari decides to knock it down then as I did on Amia I will Find another server for Kor'ali.

I don't feel I have an real place to comment on the Morcane and Mori'hyanda join (if it happens) but I agree with reaperman @ vilms comment, if we all join forces are one big house, we lose most of the point of being a drow.
It's society, and tension between the houses (IC only) is not a bad thing, it's what our RP is about afterall.

Anything to inspire RP is a plus, and if a join of these two houses will do so, then thumbs up and good luck with it. I don't think all the work on any of these two houses would go to waste.. however, it'll be a hard swallow for some of the players that are comfortable with positions. Mori'hyanda and Morcane are both good houses - it's not a loss, and I think it can only become better. Sure there will be teething problems, but with more work, it'll be fine.

Also, I heavily disagree with drow DMs running a house/s.. there are no DMs in Szith as it is, and I prefer that we are in control of RP, even if it is bloody hard to think up player run events all the time.

I share your concerns Vald but life is about change without which we would not evolve. Try not to look at this as the death of two houses but the beggining of something new

Gee fresh your last comment was rather final as if you are in control of all the players actions in these two Houses or that its been decided and Final Id like to hear from the other players of these Houses and if they agree with you on this. and would just Like to say that if any of the players in these Houses dont want to be in one big house I think Kor'ali can poach I mean recruit them into Kor'ali if there house is defunct they could maybe even put Morc'Korali or Mori'Kor'ali as there last names so they still had the conection should things ever change back again but this is just a possibility need to talk with Shard and Svener First on that one.

Qilintha Dev'Lin wrote:

Also, I heavily disagree with drow DMs running a house/s.. there are no DMs in Szith as it is, and I prefer that we are in control of RP, even if it is bloody hard to think up player run events all the time.

Yes, that was one of the main gripes that was aired over and over again when it was just the two houses as at that point I think we had 4 or 5 active DM's in Mori. It is also the reason I haven't gone for a DM role as I want to stay away from this sort of complication

ReapermanAUS wrote:

Gee fresh your last comment was rather final as if you are in control of all the players actions in these two Houses or that its been decided and Final Id like to hear from the other players of these Houses and if they agree with you on this. and would just Like to say that if any of the players in these Houses dont want to be in one big house I think Kor'ali can poach I mean recruit them into Kor'ali if there house is defunct they could maybe even put Morc'Korali or Mori'Kor'ali as there last names so they still had the conection should things ever change back again but this is just a possibility need to talk with Shard and Svener First on that one.

Hmm, I think you've missunderstood what was initially posted, Kor'ali and Dev'lin are not involved as houses in this joining together, only Mori and Morcane and while all input in a disscussion is appreciated I am just trying to find out what the members of the two houses of Mori and Morcane think about the idea.

It was Vilm who suggested one house for all and all I meant by my post was to get back on topic for the two houses to continue disscussion

ReapermanAUS wrote:

I think Kor'ali can poach I mean recruit them into Kor'ali if there house is defunct they could maybe even put Morc'Korali or Mori'Kor'ali as there last names so they still had the conection should things ever change back again but this is just a possibility need to talk with Shard and Svener First on that one.

Okay, well I don't really agree with that either... I think IF this join happens, then 'poaching' players into one certain house would just cause yet another disagreement. Leave that for the players of Morcane and Mori'hyanda to decide on, Kor'ali and Dev'Lin are just houses in the background here and we have nothing to do with it in that respect.

Also, on that note, I think dropping anyone that doesn't agree to shebali is a good idea- so they can be RP'd into a house, like anyone other she'bali and not just mass recruited or, in reapers words 'poached'.

Edit: My, I should really proof read before I click send!

vald wrote:

im talking about the house itself gee i just re did the damn thing, as far as the players go what they want is up 2 them, it is after all a game and the point is to have fun, and d&d was ment o be flexible, both Hari and I agree Ra Salvatore can ho 2 hell when it comes to tfr, it is up to the players to make the lore what is there is just a bace to provide something to start with it will not be re written but it can be added to

Heh, I feel your pain as I had a hand in it too this is one of the complications that would arise if it came up but there is no reason why the actual two houses in game can't just be joined via a secret passage way or something simple.

I agree its more work, more pain and some loss on both parts but the possabilities are, I think worth it

'poached'? but i dont want to be an egg, i wana be a dwow

Yeah well I didnt say they had to come to Kor'ali dev'lins just as good but some players due to their past rp (see I can use their when I think about it and not the there I used before incorrectly lol ) I jjust meant that if they have an arch Rival in the house who's name is kept or who has The Maton incharge then they can carry on their rp even if their house per say is no longer of course if you have arch rival in Kor'ali then this is prob not the way to go I hear Del'za d velven will take any Jaluk who wants to join and has found himself houseless or even if you just want out from under your Matron/High priestess's Jack Boot. Isnt that right Buck

i'm going to offer a few quick thoughts about this as i have been a longtime morcane player and was around during the hari/troubles thing.

I'm also a bit dispassionate about it now as im mostly playing on another server which could be a good or bad thing.

The biggest problem i had with drow RP in the UD wasnt the problems between the houses (i loved that part) it was the seemingly lack of ability of the DMs to settle things in a meaningful way.
Yes there was a shitstorm and yes the OOC stuff got ridiculous at one point but imho the dm staff just said "whoa" and stepped back because they didn't want to get involved with ooc crap.

I said all along that this was the wrong decision imho.
There should be some mechanism to make the house thing work as the intrigue it brings is a driving factor of drow RP.

Instead we were left bereft of DMs and so the drow population just went away.

There were any number of drow players that could have made excellent drow dms (and who offered or offered plot suggestions) that were just ignored or listened to and told "no" for various reasons.
And by this i dont just mean me, there were other out there who expressed same to me, right before they left the UD and in some cases the server.

In the end i also left TFR (mostly) for the same reasons.

The dm staff ignored my suggestions to get RP going, ignored my requests for dm plots of any kind and generally ignored the UD.

Now please understand i am not personally attacking the dms here, this is coming from a player with little or no knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes dm wise. There could be any number of reasons why they did not respond and top of my list is the assumption that the dms on tfr are not empowered to affect or change the world at all.

anyhoo that's my two cents, carry on!

adz wrote:

Yes there was a shitstorm and yes the OOC stuff got ridiculous at one point but imho the dm staff just said "whoa" and stepped back because they didn't want to get involved with ooc crap.
anyhoo that's my two cents, carry on!

Well I think I have to dissagree with you there in part bud, imo the problem was caused by DM's who thought they could control what should and shouldn't happen between players and houses and this is what caused all the problems that Szith had, not the sole cause but deffinatly a factor in it.

The best thing they did from my perspective was to step back and let us all figure things out without imposing thier descisions upon us anymore. Fair enough it shouldn't have gone on as far as it did before they stepped back but power to the people who rose from the ashes.

While we're on the subject however I'll add a bit to this. Those in Morcane who left the server/UD I think feel the same way that you do. Those in Mori who left felt like they had just been bent over. The most Lolthian house (at the time at least, hopefully it still is now ) in Szith being acused of heracy (fair enough) but then Lolth believing the lie casting them down? That was enough to break some of our most loyal members.

Anyway, everyone felt like they got screwed with the event, Mori and Morcane as well it seems and We as houses and Szith because of it never fully recovered to how good it was. The proposition of joining the two houses is one to heal past indiscressions so that we can all move on from this event.

that would have been fine gee if the dms had stepped back in and instituted more dm events for the UD but they didnt and the player base just evaporated.

Yeah, I made suggestions to ADZ, was told we'll talk, and we never talked.....

Or I discuss ideas with people and they shoot them down all over the place, and arguments like we had in the past. ((see the threads in TFR boards that are like 15 pages deep))

Truth be told we have conversations like this one every 6 months or so and will continue to, unless we have proper DM attention, with out that it does not matter what we change, and for those of you who disagree, we'll have this converstaion again with in 6 months, maybe then you will change your tune .