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 Feeling Targeted

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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Feeling Targeted   Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:18 am

I am really sorry to have to come out and say this... but I can't help but feel like my House is becoming a target of the same kind of jealousy and bitterness that was Szith's downfall so recently. This OOC squabbling is going to cause nothing but resentment. Perhaps I should apologize for organizing the guild as well as I have with players who are on as often as they are. But wasn't that the point? I have just learned of a plot against my House based on a discussion about OOC character sheet information. It isn't the first such type of ooc disagreement that has been had either. House Dev'Lin has but one purpose in Szith and thats to make things better. To get things better organized so that they are more fun for the multiplayer world we pretend to live in. So you can take this as an invitation to let me hear any problems you might have with my House or its members. I will do my best to keep this discussion calm and rational, I hope I can get the same from everyone else. Thanks for reading this.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:58 am

?
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Shriae'dia

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:35 pm

OK what has happened. Here a little summary (I can add screenies if nessceary):

My character Shriae'dia has observed some nobles of house Dev'Lin claiming that they would worship Mystra in public. For this reason she did what every follower of LLoth and VDVM member would do. She weaved a web and was going to react.

Referring to Sorn's post I will give up this plan now and appologize for trying to RP this. My char will forget that this incident has ever happened and I will try to convince other involved player to do the same.
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Vilmiathien
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:02 pm

First time I have heard about this, but I have not been in for a couple of days, been trying to get my analog video inputs on my comp to work so I can capture some old VHS videos as well as building a website Razz. Will be in tonight.

Sounds like it was a simple misunderstanding, in TFR there tends to be a lot of OOC talk and sometimes, people have problems differentiating between what is IC and what is OOC. I would recomend everyone trys to keep things IC as best as possible in IC areas, and if you are going to share ooc info on the talk channel, make sure it is clearly OOC by adding lots of slashes to the front of it or straight out putting OOC: in front of it. I have seen these problems rise with others in TFR and usually it is because someone read someone saying something ooc and got confursed.

Sorn, the improvements to House Dev'lin have greatly helped to improve our drow rp, no complaints here Smile
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Mr_Otyugh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:42 am

Drow plot... drow backstab... they abuse any weaknesses... that's what drow do, just to gain more power or upper hand over another. I've seen screenie of one Dev'lin member claiming that her (I assume from name? I haven't really logged in for few months) deity is Mystra and Lloth (IC... it was typed out loud, not from character sheet). In that same order, and said few times as well... in drow society unlikely anyone would say any other gods/goddesses than Lolth or Selvetarm... even if they'd worship other gods.

About plot to see "how far the herecy has gone within 'insert house' lines" seems very valid to me.


I think what problem is that people rather take things OOC than go with them IC... even if bad things or even if they're a bit insensible (notice.. a bit.. not meaning there'll come situation you have to fully submit to gross metagaming/god moding). As for if you now believe things as jealousy/bitterness you'll probably keep seeing it anyway, since that's how human mind works... seeking for any signs that supports your theory. (happens to everybody Razz)


If there's jealousy/bitterness I can just simply say... it all goes in waves, maybe today Dev'lin is most powerful house... maybe tomorrow Kor'ali is... day after tomorrow Morcane is and at wednesday Mori'hyanda is Razz... unlikely that fast, but that's how it has always been and that's how it will always probably be.



Generally your problem isn't what other characters do... it's what your characters do, how they react to others actions, maybe abuse them or avoid them. Other players characters do what they do... if they turn out to be a real problem.. report them to DMs or try to talk the issue through with them to let them see wider view and maybe change course of their actions.
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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:12 am

I offered a couple of different options for Shriae to resolve an OOC discussion about someones character because it was discussed as IC for some reason. I can't speak as to the reason why because I am not the player in question. But I was told that none of those options was good enough and that we were going to have to accept whatever someone else wanted to. That is unacceptable. I feel it would be unacceptable for anyone who found themselves in the same position.

As for House Dev'Lin's current status in Szith... we have as many active players right now as the rest of the Houses combined. With that said however I don't feel that I have ever used that as an advantage to push our weight around. I have had this discussion without Pau and informed her that Dev'Lin would be satsified with the position of third House in Szith. We are more interested in getting things organized and controlled than we are in starting any trouble for the rest of the city. There are concessions that we feel should be made for our House due to the lack of political involvement in Szith before my take over of the House. We have nominated Korvelas Dev'Lin for the position of Head Master of Melee Magthere... something I feel would be fair since Mori has the temple and Morcane has Sorcere. We also have a member training for the position of Master of Illusion in Sorcere and another who will be attempting the position of Master of Transmutation.

There seems to be an inherrent ego trip associated with playing a drow that I must have missed. Yesterday my epic level archmage was treated as if he was a common zhaunin in Sorcere... leading to a total disruption of our attempts to RP. This is exactly what caused the problems last time... nobody wants to be told what to do and the sooner we get that through our skulls the quicker we'll be able to get things in order and the sooner we'll be able to really enjoy a fleshed out Szith that has been missing for nigh on a year now.

Again... if there are any problems with House Dev'Lin or the way we conduct business... come talk to me. I am more than willing to work with anyone on any plot ideas and stories that include our members or our House. I think most everyone knows that I am generous with both my time and my resources. My only desire is for us to find a way to enjoy playing on this server.
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Mr_Otyugh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:57 am

Quote :
There seems to be an inherrent ego trip associated with playing a drow that I must have missed. Yesterday my epic level archmage was treated as if he was a common zhaunin in Sorcere...
I know.. sorta taken out of context, but these two right next to each other can be taken two ways Wink

So far what I've heard about this is that your character wouldn't sit down during lesson of necromancy... honestly, I don't know what's the big deal from either side about that... one can't sit and other can't give up, seems like making mountain out of molehole.

And yes... that has been problem, unwillingness to back off and just roll with it. Why do everyone have to win always?...



I won't get to that compromises/plot thingie since it seems that plot line has died already.
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Shriae'dia

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:21 am

My last reply to to this topic:

Quote :
I offered a couple of different options for Shriae to resolve an OOC discussion about someones character because it was discussed as IC for some reason.

You have offered me exactly one option (i can add screenies to refresh your memory if nessecary). I have told you that I had no problems with your solution, but other plots were already planned and started.

Quote :
But I was told that none of those options was good enough and that we were going to have to accept whatever someone else wanted to. That is unacceptable

This is not true and honestly spoken a little bit unfair. I dont tell other player what they have to accept or not. Maybe Shriae and other involved player (who arent Kor'ali member, if this should be your problem) would be sucessful and maybe they would fail. I have no reason to tell other player how a plot has to end.

But no problem. I have already told all involved player to forget what has happened, so there are no IC consequences for your house. If such an incident should happen again please warn me before so I can prevent wasting my time.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:41 pm

regarding the silly confrontation in the class i held in sorciere....

everyone entered and i asked everyone to take a seat.

sol refused.

i asked him repeatedly IC in a pleasant manner using "please".

no threats, no nasty language, simply asked him to take seat if he was going to attend class.

for some reason sol took it as a battle of wills and began sending me ooc tells that i was a power mad nut. for asking him to sit-down?

i tried to keep it civil and IC but he kept sending me ooc tells to the affect that i was an power mad.

i told him how i felt which was this: i had spent considerable time prepping the class and all i was asking wsa that all who attended showed proper respect for a m'elzar of the tower who was teaching the class.

he refused taking it as some kind of insult that i would ask everyone to take a seat.

i then asked him to leave if he would't sit.

he left and asked all the devlins there to come with him!
how petty!
then when one devlin refused he asked for his house key back!
talk about petty!

nevertheless the class went well and the rp was very good even without sol.

later on that same day i had the opportunity to rp with sol again and it was fine.

he just seemed to go nuts momentarily in sorciere and take it as an insult that an instructor would ask him to take a seat in his class.

not sure what was up, perhaps he had a few beers or was feeling a little insecure or maybe just had a bad day.

regardless i was a little irked that sol would not respect the fact that i had spent considerable time prepping an event to enhance drow RP and instead decide to turn it into some kind of idiotic power standoff.

it was never about that for me...if it was i would have said something insulting, demeaning or denegrating which i did not.
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Raye'Kan Dev'Lin

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:59 pm

[quote="Shriae'dia"]My last reply to to this topic:

Quote :
If such an incident should happen again please warn me before so I can prevent wasting my time.

Such an angry post. Though I was not apart of this incident, and really know nothing of it, I'd like to offer an apology on behalf of House Dev'Lin. No personal affronts or insults were intended to you or our character.

Hopefully, in the future, we will be able to work together in friendly 00C even if it is IC to pretend to not be friendly.

Regarding the incident in the Sociere, it sounds to me like Sol mistook something as an insult that was not intended to be one. Mistakes happen, and it would seem that Cel is more than willing to say np, lets move on.

So lets do that folks, and keep trying to build a Szith that plays together and not at each other's expense.
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GenocideMode

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:23 pm

Sorn...
Quote :
There seems to be an inherrent ego trip associated with playing a drow that I must have missed. Yesterday my epic level archmage was treated as if he was a common zhaunin in Sorcere... leading to a total disruption of our attempts to RP. This is exactly what caused the problems last time... nobody wants to be told what to do and the sooner we get that through our skulls the quicker we'll be able to get things in order and the sooner we'll be able to really enjoy a fleshed out Szith that has been missing for nigh on a year now.

Egos have nothing to do with it Sorn, personaly I have no issues with you or the Dev Lins, I did put Cel in chargs of his first class as part of his RP to become the necro instrustor. Just because you have an epic mage really dont meen much you are still a farun that I hope is willing to take my entry lvl test to becaome a full member of Sorcere, just because you talked to the NPC at the door and got the insigna dont meen nothing and one can do that. As of now theres only 2 full members of the tower not including Rizz, thats Cel and Vindel, they compleated the entry test. I hope this put up all on the same page.

Even Rizzen has lower himself to lessers befor he was anythinig besides epic.
Who ever is in charge of the class has the final word, what would you have done if rizz asked you to take a set? Cel now has every right to ask for punishment but he wants to move on, good for him.

btw I been looking for Rayn to finish his test in game.
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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:57 am

Respect must be given... if you expect it in turn. Just because I haven't been able to adhere to the schedule of someone else in order to attain a position doesn't make what I have done any less.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:16 am

moving on..
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Dieu_Le_Fera



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:49 am

Quote :
offered a couple of different options for Shriae to resolve an OOC discussion about someones character because it was discussed as IC for some reason.

If it was said IC then it should be dealt with IC. It sounds like you were caught and are now trying to weasle out of it... but I digress.
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Mr_Otyugh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:55 am

Hah, first time I see not-sitting-down makes so much fuzz. I sure hope other basic things doesn't make as much fuzz in drow society, or I wonder how do all thee people still have fun playing drow ;P

Quote :
Respect must be given... if you expect it in turn.
That goes two ways as well... at some point someone has to be bigger man and do the initiative, props to adzling of that.
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GeeFresh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:54 pm

Ok, I've heard rumors about both of these happenings in game but only just read about them from those involved in thier entirety. We've been haveing a disscussion about a third related incident on our internal boards but I don't want to complicate the issue by posting details of it here.

I think I speak for all the houses when I say that no direct IC targeting of Dev'lin has been instigated by any of the house leaders as we are all tired of what happened to Szith and minor skirmishes aside will be using the OOC council meetings to develop inter-house relationships and interactions as long as all the leaders agree on how each house should react to another.

I'd also like to say one thing here which I had hoped to bring up on Sunday at the council meeting but it doesn't look to have started yet. I have asked that Dev'lin show a little more constraint in thier recruitment program like the other houses have and are doing. The reply I have been given is that Dev'lin is open to all and everyone that wants to join them, I have no problem with this at all. However problems like the ones listed in this thread and future problems that will arise if such an open door policy continues will only result in furthering the feelings of alienation and "targeting" by members of the house. This is in no way a threat and I'd like to explain why this is the case if I may.

The reason why the application process needs to be held is because IC'ly if a house will take in anyone then they will grow to a large size quickly and IC'ly this will be seen as a threat by other drow houses who will act IC'ly against them (This should only happen with council permission as long as everyone agrees on the state of play and they should agree to keep everything IC) and this will enevitably lead to those less experianced or those less able to differentiate between IC and OOC members of the house taking OOC offence toi IC actions.

The reason why I belive people should wander round as She'bali for a while until a noble house notices them and invites them in is that those who are unable to deal with the tough (and it is tough to rp a drow without taking things personally) life of a drow need to be weeded out before they enter a house and cause problems within that house and to that house. Those who are unable to deal with drow life may leave the Underdark and play a surfacer but if they end up in a situation they are unable to deal with here they will not have fun and thats what its all about.

I myself have had several incidents of people from Dev'lin taking personal offence to my IC actions or inactions because they don't know how to play a drow properly yet or the way a Lolthian matriarchal society works at all and I have even been threatened several times through OOC tells that IC actions will be taken against our house or all the houses due to me being mean to them, you know who you are Razz. This is not acceptable or healthy for Szith.
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Raye'Kan Dev'Lin

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:00 pm

GenocideMode wrote:
btw I been looking for Rayn to finish his test in game.

Heh, poor Raye and Rizz have been having a devil of a time getting on line at the same time. Mostly my fault having been out of town for two months with a crappy connection that pretty much kept me on server 2 (thank hari for serv2, really) Raye has been ready for the next test all that time lol, but i'm sure Rizz and I will catch each other on line soon.
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Sorn Dev'Lin



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:07 pm

A large majority of the members who have joined Dev'Lin approached me about creating a character with that express purpose in mind. I think that any House should have an open door policy in regards to potential members and I don't believe I have ever suggested to a player that they join any House in particular. It is my intention to see all of Szith healthy and doing well.

The RPing of a proper drow society is nigh impossible on a player made up of so many people and so many interpretations of what exactly entails drow culture. I think that the best rule of thumb for playing on such a diverse server is to allow the females a bow and polite greeting and understand that not every player you come across has read every book about drow that you might. Sometimes a little patience can go a long ways to offending anyone IC or OOC.

It is not my intention to offend anyone with anything I've said or done, in fact my intentions are quite the opposite. I will not however apologize for adding anyone I believe to be an asset to my House. Isn't that the wisest course of action for us all? To increase the enjoyment of the game.
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adzling



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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:26 pm

regarding recruiting anything that moves Ii have brought this up before and discussed in detail with pau among others.

House morcane i am proud to say has instituted strict recruitment policies to prevent wholesale recruitment of every 1st level drow that wanders the city.

this is "recruit anything that moves" policy is one of the main reasons for the problems that beset szith (and korali and devlin in particular) earlier this year.

too many newbs with no education in drow lore getting recruited without a good understanding of what's up.

I agree 100% with pau regarding restricting recruiting.

ideally there would be a szith-wide blooding ritual held by the yathrinen once every other week for potential new recruits to the 4 quellars. This "standardized" recruiting would restrict the quantity and quality of recruits joining houses so that those who obviously have no idea what the fark drow are about don't get to complete the ritual.

those that do get to join the house they are sponsored by (to take part in the blooding ritual you would have to be sponsored by a specific quellar).

This would also make joining a quellar much more meaningful...as it should be.
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:34 pm

Well I'm not going to dictate how a house should be run or how it shouldn't be. I only give my observations as one who has spent a lot of time in Szith and seen houses rise and fall and tear themselves apart, how people deal with the IC/OOC conflicts and either adapt or work themselves to a point at which they no longer enjoy the experience, how power corrupts and how absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I believe that new drow should be given time as she'bali to find their feet in Szith to gain much needed knowledge of how to act and that each house should cater for different tastes in play so that each new drow player can find the house that is right for them once they have had time to establish their own opinions on the matter.

The wisest course of action for us is to think about the big picture and the structure of Szith itself and therein the enjoyment of the game. House Dev'lin may be happy with its situation at the moment but it would be blind to see that others are not so happy with it. To show my trekkie roots *cough* The needs of the many out way the needs of the few or the one *cough*

adzling wrote:
ideally there would be a szith-wide blooding ritual held by the yathrinen once every other week for potential new recruits to the 4 quellars. This "standardized" recruiting would restrict the quantity and quality of recruits joining houses so that those who obviously have no idea what the fark drow are about don't get to complete the ritual.

those that do get to join the house they are sponsored by (to take part in the blooding ritual you would have to be sponsored by a specific quellar).

This would also make joining a quellar much more meaningful...as it should be.

Already part way to doing this as it is. Once the council is up and running properly organization will be a bit better but in case you missed the first one of these;

http://forgottenrealm.ca/smf/index.php/topic,2684.0.html

ALL houses were involved and it was a dam fine event Wink
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Raye'Kan Dev'Lin

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:47 pm

Sorry GeeFresh, but the same argument of "they recruit anybody so they are/might be a problem" was spoken against House Morcane about a year ago. Though it may not be intended to be a negative statement, it reads that way. Sorry =(

Dev'Lin might be a really big house right now, but chances are, with the ebb and flow of NWN2 PW life, it won't always be. Try to relax a bit, and maybe even be a bit gracious.

Maybe it's time for the third House of Szith to account for something other than being the low totem kicking dogs, even if its just for a couple of months.
how about supporting that and being glad of the return of activity in Szith and Dev'Lin's willingness to assist those new players in learning and surviving.

Maybe it would be to another house's benefit to 'befriend' Dev'Lin instead of looking for an excuse to tear them down. Wouldn't it be more "drow" to try and gain the false trust of a large house in attempts to manipulate them in to a position that strengthens your own? If someone is perceived as a threat in drow society, a threat that you cannot outright kill, then insulting the threat is not the way of the drow. Or does Dev'Lin have to make a bid for house advancement, and thus for filling your fears, before being treated as a valuable aspect of Szith? Frankly, I don't like that idea at all.
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GeeFresh

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:07 pm

Raye'Kan Dev'Lin wrote:
The same argument of "they recruit anybody so they are/might be a problem" was spoken against House Morcane about a year ago.

And they have since learned from their mistakes.

adzling wrote:
House morcane i am proud to say has instituted strict recruitment policies to prevent wholesale recruitment of every 1st level drow that wanders the city.

The swelling of House Morcane lead to their resentment of being classed as "house number 2" below Mori'hyanda which in turn lead to the first and eventually second "reckonings" and most of us know how well that turned out for Szith now don't we? A lot of valued players and DM's left and the city became a shell of its former self for months, we still haven't fully recovered more than 6 months on.

Admin has washed their hands of Szith until we can sort things out for ourselves and we have for months now been working our way towards doing just that until recently. If we want Szith to stay busy and not just ebb and flow with the numbers of players we all need to work together as a team and operate under similar constraints.

I've been as polite as possible regarding this matter, I don't mind at all that one house has more players than another but to prevent any other houses gaining members because they are all scooped up the second they set foot in Szith whether they are a benefit to the house or not is, in my opinion at least, being both selfish and and ignorant and is not benefiting the community. Even if this is unintentional which I believe it is it is still damaging the Szith community and needs to be addressed.
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Raye'Kan Dev'Lin

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:15 am

So the point is "Dev'Lin should not have any more members because it is felt, or could be felt, rightfully or incorrectly, that a large house will cause the downfall of Szith because they will demand to be first house and that such a demand will cause the same undue stress because the present higher houses will refuse to consider not being #1" (or #2 or whatever number for that matter).

That seems rather unflattering all around. Please tell me that I am reading that wrong. I have higher hopes for this new Council of Szith as well as the leadership of the four houses, to be able to work together in a manner that benefits Szith instead of dictating who can be in what guild.

Dev'Lin is not, to my knowledge, attempting "to prevent any other houses gaining members because they are all scooped up the second they set foot in Szith"

Yesterday I was happy to encourage a new necromancer to join House Morcane as a part of his apprenticeship to the M'zer d'Necromancy, since that master is of House Morcane. On the other hand, I personally have been apart of the recruitment of two new members; One in that I gave my nod of approval in joining her due to RP experiences I had with that player's surface character, and RP I had with his/her UD drow. The second, a player who approached me after an RP interaction where I was speaking mainly to another Dev'Lin of which he was grouped with. At which point, I turned him away from becoming my apprentice because he wasn't 7th level yet. I also suggested that he might look to another, our new Qu'el faernuk as a possible teacher. Later on, after interacting with yet more Dev'Lin house members, he choose to join us. So please, stop saying negative things like 'your guild is scooping up all the new blood before we can.'

It's as bad as me saying something like - "Would it be better to go back to the plan of disbanding Dev'Lin and moving her members into Mori to thereby stabilize and invigorate Szith?" - Which I don't think anyone actually wants to have happen anymore.

From what I am seeing, there seems to be some sort of underlining fear of "my house being considered below someone else's house" going on in reaction to Dev'Lin's growth. So lets just get rid of the "House Order" all together and state that all of the Houses are of equal standing, with no one house being able to look down upon or be rude to just for the heck of it. Szith is a small city, it doesn't have to be that great of a stretch that for survival (and 00C health) such a measure can be adopted. Seems like the house order is system is the problem, fun in fiction, problematic in a NWN2 PW.
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BladeChill

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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:41 am

So ya I left a post and then decided it was better for me to delete it since I play a dev'lin and a mori' comments like "petty" seem very inappropriate, rude and I noticed that in turn my post became rather mean.

1) since I have played here every house has been accused of recruiting to much (except mori' who have always been labeled elitists)

2) It should be the job of all the Drow to help newer Drow players. Observation does not help people learn about drow history, society and structure. Also not helping them chases them away. 3 weeks or so ago I saw a new drow in szith center. He was clearly a new drow and didn't know exactly how to rp with the drow he was dropped next to after leaving the start area. I watched this drow get killed 2 or 3 times for his actions with in a 5 or 6min period. He logged and I haven't seen him since. Now I don't know if someone was trying to help him in tells but none of the drow around seemed to be helping him understand.

This is an open server. Anyone who owns the game can join. From us elitists who have played D&D since the dawn of time to those who thought the cover of the case looked cool. If your only accepting those who know about drow and meet all these other requirements then fine that's what your going to get. But you will be out numbered by the house who is willing to help players understand the society and structure better. Because when it comes time to join a house they are going to think of the players who have helped them.

There, my post is about a page shorter.


Last edited by BladeChill on Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : not appropriate ~ Edited by myself.)
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling Targeted   Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:07 am

I think Blade makes a very good point. There are a number of players who would play drow or would have stuck around to play their drow longer if they didn't have someone attempting to portray their version of a female and whip everyone in sight. That isn't RPing a drow female... thats being an asshole. As I've mentioned before... this is a massive multiplayer experience with various views on the drow culture and society. We should all do our part to help foster proper respect and understanding of the basic culture... but lets not pretend that this can be followed to the letter.

As for the recruiting of new drow... my policies are not going to change. It is my intention to see that every player who wants to play a drow is assisted in that endeavor and if that leads them to desire becoming a member of House Dev'Lin and I feel they will be a benefit then thats the way it is. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit into someone else's idea of "rules" or what have you. Quite frankly this whole thread was started because of the Elitist attitude that I have seen demonstrated over and over again in Szith. And you people wonder why there are so many OOC arguments. I will not be told how to run my guild, I will not be told that we don't deserve any respect from the rest of Szith because we haven't found the time to fall into someone else's schedule of events and I hope that you can respect us as fellow players enough to try and work together. We are all just trying to enjoy a game here.
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